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	<title>Comments for The random ramblings of andrewg</title>
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	<link>http://andrewg.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>Life, the Universe and Everything</description>
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		<title>Comment on Swiss referendum to ban minarets by Ed</title>
		<link>http://andrewg.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/swiss-referendum-to-ban-minarets/#comment-164</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 07:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewg.wordpress.com/?p=126#comment-164</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;This is why we have professional parliamentarians.&lt;/I&gt;

Who are snake-oil salesfolk, selected by the spiteful and inconsistent population, and placed in a position where they have terrible incentives to do whatever it takes to stay in power. If the people are as bad as you say, how can we trust those they elect?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>This is why we have professional parliamentarians.</i></p>
<p>Who are snake-oil salesfolk, selected by the spiteful and inconsistent population, and placed in a position where they have terrible incentives to do whatever it takes to stay in power. If the people are as bad as you say, how can we trust those they elect?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Swiss referendum to ban minarets by andrewgdotcom</title>
		<link>http://andrewg.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/swiss-referendum-to-ban-minarets/#comment-163</link>
		<dc:creator>andrewgdotcom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewg.wordpress.com/?p=126#comment-163</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Why have democracy at all if what the people want doesn’t matter?&lt;/em&gt;

Two problems with &quot;the will of the people&quot; come to mind straight away.

Firstly, people are spiteful. Given half a chance they will prejudge, discriminate and gang up against the weak and the different. If we slavishly followed the public will we would have all the foreigners in jail, religious minorities suppressed, torture, sterilisation, concentration camps. This is why we have human rights legislation.

And secondly, people are inconsistent. They want lower taxes but higher healthcare budgets, more surveillance but more freedom, greater international cooperation but fewer foreigners telling them what to do. This is why we have professional parliamentarians.

&lt;em&gt;I certainly would not want to be the politician that said to the Swiss people “you have made the wrong choice, so you won’t get another referendum” like the French and Dutch did.&lt;/em&gt;

The decision to give the French and Dutch a referendum was just as arbitrary as the decision to take it away again. At least in Switzerland and Ireland there is a statutory basis for such decisions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Why have democracy at all if what the people want doesn’t matter?</em></p>
<p>Two problems with &#8220;the will of the people&#8221; come to mind straight away.</p>
<p>Firstly, people are spiteful. Given half a chance they will prejudge, discriminate and gang up against the weak and the different. If we slavishly followed the public will we would have all the foreigners in jail, religious minorities suppressed, torture, sterilisation, concentration camps. This is why we have human rights legislation.</p>
<p>And secondly, people are inconsistent. They want lower taxes but higher healthcare budgets, more surveillance but more freedom, greater international cooperation but fewer foreigners telling them what to do. This is why we have professional parliamentarians.</p>
<p><em>I certainly would not want to be the politician that said to the Swiss people “you have made the wrong choice, so you won’t get another referendum” like the French and Dutch did.</em></p>
<p>The decision to give the French and Dutch a referendum was just as arbitrary as the decision to take it away again. At least in Switzerland and Ireland there is a statutory basis for such decisions.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Swiss referendum to ban minarets by Ed</title>
		<link>http://andrewg.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/swiss-referendum-to-ban-minarets/#comment-162</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewg.wordpress.com/?p=126#comment-162</guid>
		<description>The poster child for the failures of direct democracy is California. It usually works rather well in Switzerland. I certainly would not want to be the politician that said to the Swiss people &quot;you have made the wrong choice, so you won&#039;t get another referendum&quot; like the French and Dutch did. Why not? This is the reason :-)

http://tinyurl.com/yfqpd8w

Of course, turnout is an issue. The danger is that you get student union democracy: 101 extremists on one side, 100 on the other and 10,000 who don&#039;t care and don&#039;t vote. Easy enough to solve: compulsory voting, or a mandatory level of turnout for the referendum to count.

The next problem is the electorate itself. I don&#039;t want to sound like Brecht talking about electing a different people, but direct democracy will work better if the people are strong and independent-minded. California has too much welfare dependency (not just the poor, but also favoured companies, public sector unions, NGOs, etc) and too much &quot;victimhood poker&quot;, thus the entirely rational choices (within that system) for individuals and/or particular special interest groups are damaging to the people and the state as a whole. If the politicians treat us like toddlers with ADD, we will act as toddlers with ADD.

Finally, your point that &quot;referendums, like local elections, are only ever about kicking the government in the nuts&quot; is easily solved by providing an alternative means of doing this, e.g. by allowing the people to literally do it. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The poster child for the failures of direct democracy is California. It usually works rather well in Switzerland. I certainly would not want to be the politician that said to the Swiss people &#8220;you have made the wrong choice, so you won&#8217;t get another referendum&#8221; like the French and Dutch did. Why not? This is the reason <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/yfqpd8w" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/yfqpd8w</a></p>
<p>Of course, turnout is an issue. The danger is that you get student union democracy: 101 extremists on one side, 100 on the other and 10,000 who don&#8217;t care and don&#8217;t vote. Easy enough to solve: compulsory voting, or a mandatory level of turnout for the referendum to count.</p>
<p>The next problem is the electorate itself. I don&#8217;t want to sound like Brecht talking about electing a different people, but direct democracy will work better if the people are strong and independent-minded. California has too much welfare dependency (not just the poor, but also favoured companies, public sector unions, NGOs, etc) and too much &#8220;victimhood poker&#8221;, thus the entirely rational choices (within that system) for individuals and/or particular special interest groups are damaging to the people and the state as a whole. If the politicians treat us like toddlers with ADD, we will act as toddlers with ADD.</p>
<p>Finally, your point that &#8220;referendums, like local elections, are only ever about kicking the government in the nuts&#8221; is easily solved by providing an alternative means of doing this, e.g. by allowing the people to literally do it. <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Swiss referendum to ban minarets by Tony</title>
		<link>http://andrewg.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/swiss-referendum-to-ban-minarets/#comment-161</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:23:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewg.wordpress.com/?p=126#comment-161</guid>
		<description>What is this standard for law being &quot;bad&quot; of which you speak? Who gets to decide that? Why have democracy at all if what the people want doesn&#039;t matter?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is this standard for law being &#8220;bad&#8221; of which you speak? Who gets to decide that? Why have democracy at all if what the people want doesn&#8217;t matter?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Swiss referendum to ban minarets by andrewgdotcom</title>
		<link>http://andrewg.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/swiss-referendum-to-ban-minarets/#comment-160</link>
		<dc:creator>andrewgdotcom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewg.wordpress.com/?p=126#comment-160</guid>
		<description>The problem with direct democracy is that it produces bad law. In this case, it&#039;s a law that is probably unconstitutional on human rights grounds (so I am reasonably hopeful that it will be overturned). Now, constitutions can also be changed by referendum, but this usually requires a government initiative to kickstart the process. A good (bad?) example of direct democracy is California, whose numerous contradictory propositions have made the state practically ungovernable (see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2009/06/the_trouble_with_california&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this Economist article&lt;/a&gt;).

Of course, even representative democracy can produce bad, kneejerk law (the UK&#039;s Dangerous Dogs Act, for example).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with direct democracy is that it produces bad law. In this case, it&#8217;s a law that is probably unconstitutional on human rights grounds (so I am reasonably hopeful that it will be overturned). Now, constitutions can also be changed by referendum, but this usually requires a government initiative to kickstart the process. A good (bad?) example of direct democracy is California, whose numerous contradictory propositions have made the state practically ungovernable (see <a href="http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2009/06/the_trouble_with_california" rel="nofollow">this Economist article</a>).</p>
<p>Of course, even representative democracy can produce bad, kneejerk law (the UK&#8217;s Dangerous Dogs Act, for example).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Swiss referendum to ban minarets by Tony</title>
		<link>http://andrewg.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/swiss-referendum-to-ban-minarets/#comment-159</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewg.wordpress.com/?p=126#comment-159</guid>
		<description>How is this a danger of direct democracy (especially ones backed by a constitution)? If it&#039;s unconstitutional, then, sure, overturn it. But if it&#039;s not, when why shouldn&#039;t they be allowed to pass it? Surely this is even stronger than Voltaire: I may not like what you vote for, but I&#039;ll defend to the death your right to vote for it...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How is this a danger of direct democracy (especially ones backed by a constitution)? If it&#8217;s unconstitutional, then, sure, overturn it. But if it&#8217;s not, when why shouldn&#8217;t they be allowed to pass it? Surely this is even stronger than Voltaire: I may not like what you vote for, but I&#8217;ll defend to the death your right to vote for it&#8230;?</p>
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		<title>Comment on On Referendums by Swiss referendum to ban minarets &#171; The random ramblings of andrewg</title>
		<link>http://andrewg.wordpress.com/2009/09/25/on-referendums/#comment-158</link>
		<dc:creator>Swiss referendum to ban minarets &#171; The random ramblings of andrewg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 21:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewg.wordpress.com/?p=107#comment-158</guid>
		<description>[...] attributable to genuine anti-Islamic sentiment and how much is due government unpopularity (see my previous post on the topic) is unclear. Opinion polls suggested the opposite result and the turnout was [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] attributable to genuine anti-Islamic sentiment and how much is due government unpopularity (see my previous post on the topic) is unclear. Opinion polls suggested the opposite result and the turnout was [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Separating Church and State by Ed</title>
		<link>http://andrewg.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/separating-church-and-state/#comment-157</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewg.wordpress.com/?p=123#comment-157</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;Forget about abolishing the Seanad/&lt;/I&gt;

Abolish? Or replace? One needs to have a second house, whose purpose is to make it as difficult as possible for the government to pass any laws. Different debate...

&lt;I&gt;outlawing the payment of public money to any religious organisation.&lt;/I&gt;

I&#039;m in two minds on this. OT1H, charities may be better at delivering certain functions at a local level than remote government departments, and this rule would prevent the likes of Christian Aid and the Salvation Army from participating. OTOH, the very act of becoming dependent upon government money makes them &quot;fake charities&quot;, and thus corrupts their purpose to serve the political whims of their new paymasters, e.g. by astroturfing. 

In the case of welfare/tackling poverty, my preferred solution would be for government to eliminate ALL means-tested benefits, to have a flat rate citizens basic income for everyone (so no-one starves), and leave everything else to private charities, insurance, mutual/friendly societies, etc. This would both eliminate the disincentives to working caused by benefit withdrawal, and force those who need extra help to act in a way that persuades others to voluntarily give to them, instead of feeling they are &quot;entitled&quot; to have everything paid by government. Education? I would go for a voucher system (i.e. government funding to be bottom up, rather than top down), and get the government out of the business of owning thousands of schools and directly employing hundreds of thousands of staff.

&lt;I&gt;they were all built and maintained using taxpayers’ money in the first place,&lt;/I&gt;

Maybe so, but who legally owns them?

&lt;I&gt;the only proper thing to do would be to donate them. Call it “compensation” if you will.&lt;/I&gt;

In this case, one can definitely argue this. However, one must be extremely wary of allowing government to seize private property without due process of law. Once that starts, where will it stop?

&lt;I&gt;who averted their eyes should be fired and prosecuted too&lt;/I&gt;

Absolutely, in the church and all relevant government agencies. 

&lt;I&gt;This would serve not only to draw a line (one would hope) under the historical abuse of children in care homes and elsewhere&lt;/I&gt;

Draw a line on this particular history of abuse. However, a secular care system is also vulnerable, albeit on a smaller scale, more localised basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Forget about abolishing the Seanad/</i></p>
<p>Abolish? Or replace? One needs to have a second house, whose purpose is to make it as difficult as possible for the government to pass any laws. Different debate&#8230;</p>
<p><i>outlawing the payment of public money to any religious organisation.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m in two minds on this. OT1H, charities may be better at delivering certain functions at a local level than remote government departments, and this rule would prevent the likes of Christian Aid and the Salvation Army from participating. OTOH, the very act of becoming dependent upon government money makes them &#8220;fake charities&#8221;, and thus corrupts their purpose to serve the political whims of their new paymasters, e.g. by astroturfing. </p>
<p>In the case of welfare/tackling poverty, my preferred solution would be for government to eliminate ALL means-tested benefits, to have a flat rate citizens basic income for everyone (so no-one starves), and leave everything else to private charities, insurance, mutual/friendly societies, etc. This would both eliminate the disincentives to working caused by benefit withdrawal, and force those who need extra help to act in a way that persuades others to voluntarily give to them, instead of feeling they are &#8220;entitled&#8221; to have everything paid by government. Education? I would go for a voucher system (i.e. government funding to be bottom up, rather than top down), and get the government out of the business of owning thousands of schools and directly employing hundreds of thousands of staff.</p>
<p><i>they were all built and maintained using taxpayers’ money in the first place,</i></p>
<p>Maybe so, but who legally owns them?</p>
<p><i>the only proper thing to do would be to donate them. Call it “compensation” if you will.</i></p>
<p>In this case, one can definitely argue this. However, one must be extremely wary of allowing government to seize private property without due process of law. Once that starts, where will it stop?</p>
<p><i>who averted their eyes should be fired and prosecuted too</i></p>
<p>Absolutely, in the church and all relevant government agencies. </p>
<p><i>This would serve not only to draw a line (one would hope) under the historical abuse of children in care homes and elsewhere</i></p>
<p>Draw a line on this particular history of abuse. However, a secular care system is also vulnerable, albeit on a smaller scale, more localised basis.</p>
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		<title>Comment on On Referendums by Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://andrewg.wordpress.com/2009/09/25/on-referendums/#comment-156</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewg.wordpress.com/?p=107#comment-156</guid>
		<description>I think the problem here goes deeper that just Lisbon.  Politics in general seems to be very superficial.  Most of the Local election leaflets I got were of the &#039;Hes a good chap, lived here for ages, and this is who his parents are, you probably know them&#039;.  When I asked a FF (or was it FG) door to door person what the basic difference between FF and FG is, the answer was &#039;their basically both the same&#039;.

And why are politicians like this?  Because it works! The voters ARE voting based on &#039;I know his parents&#039; or &#039;I like FF&#039; not on &#039;I have thought about it, and I like FF&#039;s view of the world better&#039;.  

So the fault here lies with the electorate.  You get the politicians you vote in people, and they will use the types of arguments that work.  So next time you vote, ask the right questions, and vote for the right reasons!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the problem here goes deeper that just Lisbon.  Politics in general seems to be very superficial.  Most of the Local election leaflets I got were of the &#8216;Hes a good chap, lived here for ages, and this is who his parents are, you probably know them&#8217;.  When I asked a FF (or was it FG) door to door person what the basic difference between FF and FG is, the answer was &#8216;their basically both the same&#8217;.</p>
<p>And why are politicians like this?  Because it works! The voters ARE voting based on &#8216;I know his parents&#8217; or &#8216;I like FF&#8217; not on &#8216;I have thought about it, and I like FF&#8217;s view of the world better&#8217;.  </p>
<p>So the fault here lies with the electorate.  You get the politicians you vote in people, and they will use the types of arguments that work.  So next time you vote, ask the right questions, and vote for the right reasons!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Separating Church and State by andrewgdotcom</title>
		<link>http://andrewg.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/separating-church-and-state/#comment-155</link>
		<dc:creator>andrewgdotcom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewg.wordpress.com/?p=123#comment-155</guid>
		<description>It would appear that the guards did hear about it, and bumped the matter straight back to the church to deal with. Mindsets like that can only be changed through being constantly challenged, and by ensuring that the next generation understand where their forebears went wrong. You are right that this will be a long process.

The single most effective thing the State can do (at this stage) is to ensure that those ultimately responsible for the mess are fired. That means removing the Church authorities from schools, care homes etc. with extreme prejudice and installing a &quot;clean hands&quot; management structure in its place. The State can no longer sit back and allow its responsibilities to be carried out by third parties with a proven track record of failure. I don&#039;t see why the wholesale transfer of the education system into State hands would by itself cause any collapses. The teachers would still get paid, but the middleman would be cut out.

(Yes, and those boys and girls in blue who averted their eyes should be fired and prosecuted too)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would appear that the guards did hear about it, and bumped the matter straight back to the church to deal with. Mindsets like that can only be changed through being constantly challenged, and by ensuring that the next generation understand where their forebears went wrong. You are right that this will be a long process.</p>
<p>The single most effective thing the State can do (at this stage) is to ensure that those ultimately responsible for the mess are fired. That means removing the Church authorities from schools, care homes etc. with extreme prejudice and installing a &#8220;clean hands&#8221; management structure in its place. The State can no longer sit back and allow its responsibilities to be carried out by third parties with a proven track record of failure. I don&#8217;t see why the wholesale transfer of the education system into State hands would by itself cause any collapses. The teachers would still get paid, but the middleman would be cut out.</p>
<p>(Yes, and those boys and girls in blue who averted their eyes should be fired and prosecuted too)</p>
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